On Collaboration
Interview By: Ian Vollmer @ianvollmer
Before I knew about the BDSM scene, I had seen photographs of it. I became curious about the photographer’s role in these intimate moments. What’s happening when people invite a camera into their private lives?
Barb Nitke has spent decades photographing the BDSM scene. She started on porn sets in New York City in the 1980s and has worked as both a commercial photographer and artist, documenting a scene in transformation—from film to digital, from something underground to internet ubiquity.
We met about twenty years ago. I had been invited to a cabaret show and was introduced to Barb as a fellow photographer. We sat together at a small cafe table in front of an elegant woman in a slinky gown singing melancholy songs. I watched as a single tear streamed down Barb’s cheek. I remember the way the stage lights hit her face. And I wanted to know her.
Over the years we’ve become friends. Recently, we spoke on the phone. I was curious to find out more about her experience of shooting this kind of work- what her role was and what it meant to her and her subjects.
Richard Avedon has suggested that a photograph is always a picture of a relationship, “the thing that happens between us.” In this sense a photograph is always a document of a collaboration. A performance awaiting an audience.
The following conversation has been edited for length and clarity.
As I understand it, some of your earliest work was made on film sets. How did you eventually begin taking pictures in the BDSM world?
I started out working on hardcore porn shows in the early 80s. That led me into fetish porn, which was a genre within the porn world at the time. I was working on a lot of fetish porn sets and my friend Rick Savage- who was a pretty big porn star back then -had fallen in love with this woman named Allyn who was into BDSM. He wanted me to meet her and brought me to my first meeting at The Eulenspiegel Society (TES). I walked in, and there was this big, dominant Black woman behind the desk and she looked at me and said: “I'm so glad you could come!” And I really felt like a magical door opened in that moment- like I’m really meant to be here. So I went into the meeting- there would be a demonstration, like flogging or something -and then they would have a circle where everybody would introduce themselves. I said I was a photographer and that I was there out of curiosity. To watch. And I was accepted as that which was very nice.
When you first approached people to photograph, what were those conversations like?
The first couple I photographed said they were into needle play- hypodermic needles. He was the top and was a lot older than she was and she was seriously into pain. Hypodermic needles was a signature part of how they played. They said, “Why don't you come to our place in New Jersey and we'll be in our bedroom and we'll do a needle scene.” I said, “Great!” I brought strobe lights and did a very, very general lighting. They lit candles all around. She was totally naked. He was topless and had really long, striking gray hair. She was a brunette. They were gorgeous together. They started doing the scene and they were very thorough. They did a lot of kissing. He would put a needle in and and then wait for her reaction. And then he would put in the next needle. And I remember, he put in a needle a little bit wrong and she didn't say a thing. She just gestured, and he took it right out. It was so gentle. Their connection was
unbelievable. And that was what I was really trying to get in the photographs- this amazing connection that people have.
What about your connection?
Once it starts, we're all in this space. Like scene space, you know. They were on the bed and they were very much into each other. Although I did not feel excluded, their energy was really towards each other. At one point though, the husband Ivan turned to me and said, “Make sure you have a lot of film in that camera!” He took off the rest of his clothes and they started having sex. I did not expect it. They had this huge dog that had been in the room with us the whole time. I was scrambling to change my lens to a wider angle and I was so nervous I dropped it and it hit the dog. The dog starts barking and runs out of the room. I looked up and saw- they had a mirror - I was completely deep red in my face. But I didn't miss the shot! I just kept going. In this moment, there was something unsaid between them. Most of the shoots I did were like that. I think there's maybe a bit of a performance element- like a showing off element ... and I think that maybe came into play.
What initially interested you? What did you discover while documenting the BDSM scene?
I used to go to Hellfire every Saturday night. Everybody would be there and everyone knew each other. A scene would start and there would be this amazing, tribal energy.
With the black and white work, what I was exploring at the time was that people could be doing sadomasochism as an expression of real love, which now I think we accept. But in the early 90s that wasn't a common way to look at sadomasochism. I was exploring the idea that it's just another way of having sex, another way of expressing love and what I wanted to show in the photographs was that energy between people.
Later on - when I shifted to color work - I had found that there were people who wanted to- it wasn’t so much about expressing love for someone else -but they were trying to break their own boundaries. They would try to go further out into a scene or further, deeper in, and so I was trying to photograph people doing that.
What’s it like when you share your images for the first time?
One of my favorite things was shooting film. You don't see it right away. We would shoot and then usually a week later get together and view the contact sheets. And my favorite thing was watching their expression when they were looking at the shots. They would have this glow. They would always love the pictures They were always so happy. I think seeing themselves in ecstasy or in love or carried away by their adventure was always so beautiful to them. And to me.
My deal with them always- with everybody -was that any shot they did not want me to use would be immediately taken out. I would tell them, “I need a model release that gives me the right to put your picture on a billboard on Park Avenue. You will not be hidden. It’s going to be public.” But the deal would be they could take out any pictures they didn't want. Rarely did anyone take out any pictures.
What’s your role in a scene and how does the experience affect you?
I always describe myself as a voyeur. I came to realize taking the pictures was my scene. My biggest turn on was taking the pictures. That's what I'm there to do. And that was how I saw myself as celebrating them. Seeing them, witnessing them, wanting to share the fact that I thought they were beautiful with the world. Maybe normalizing S&M to some degree.
I always felt incredibly honored by so many people letting me into their lives like that and trusting me to that degree. I have this endless curiosity about people and sexuality. I think some people are voyeurs because they're afraid to jump in. And I think a lot of people thought that might be me in the beginning. And that could be a little bit uncomfortable. But I always loved the role I had and I'm really proud of it.
When somebody invites a camera into a scene what else might they be inviting in?
You’re inviting the world in because there's no such thing as a private photo. Back before the internet, I had a show of work at some little gallery and a photographer from Screw magazine walked in and took pictures of my pictures on the walls. And they published them in Screw magazine. And that's when I realized: people have to know if you have a picture taken it could get out in the world. So I really made that clear from the very beginning.
When I first went into the scene I saw that there were very private people and very public people. My first goal- that I never could achieve -was to photograph what people did privately. That is how I started out, that was my first thought.
So the camera always implies the public sphere?
There’s always that potential. The camera could represent your little closed group of me and the couple- like we're just sharing this and recording it. It could also be the billboard on Park Avenue where you're saying fuck you to your parents.
What is your responsibility as a photographer?
I'm asking people to let me very, very deeply and intimately into their life. And trust me.
That's a lot.
I know. That’s why it’s always such a great honor. I remember having lunch with somebody that I wanted to photograph. We're sitting there in this diner and I'm showing her my stack of pictures and I was saying, “I just love the way you play and it'd be really cool to get to photograph you.” And she was looking through the pictures and she said: “People just look so vulnerable.” She was horrified. She couldn't be vulnerable like that. Which I understood. And I never photographed her because it just wasn't going to be her thing.
In a scene, people are often deliberately shedding one identity to inhabit another- what does that look like?
I shot a guy who was into being encased in latex. And his top dressed him in head to toe latex. The only skin open to the air was two small nostril holes and a small hole for his mouth. He could breathe. And he could get a sip of water. But he was totally encased in this latex. Then she laid him down and put him in a hammock and sewed the hammock shut. He transformed into nothingness- shall we say -or total peace. The way he described it, he was transformed into total peace. Quiet. Like a meditation. And you know what that guy did for a living? He was a mass chemical weapons expert. Part of his other job was disarming bombs. So his whole life was in these horrible, dangerous zones, and this is how he would find peace.
ABOUT
Ian Vollmer
Ian is a visual artist working across photography, experimental video, drawing, and painting. His practice explores the body, the unconscious, and the charged space between connection and its obstacles.
Barbara Nitke
Barbara is an American art photographer who specializes in the subject of human sexual relations. She has worked extensively in the porn and BDSM communities. Nitke was born in Lynchburg, Virginia in 1950 and grew up in Virginia and Alaska
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